Episode 36: The Snowflake Festival Episode

We’re back! Just in time to help you bring 2014 to a good conclusion. We discuss Project Boombastic and look back at Signs in the Stars. Also, Torsten talks Forever War and Daniel brings you the latest news on the End Times storyline (which, fair warning, completely derails into a theological discussion based on decades old D&D campaigns) and what happens to the elves there.

Elves. Khaine’t live with them, khaine’t live without them.



8 thoughts on “Episode 36: The Snowflake Festival Episode

  1. bitva

    I wouldn’t say I’m against a second edition, but as a board gamer, I would have to say that if a second edition is going to happen, please let it be with FFG passing it off to someone else. I know you guys felt that if FFG was thinking of a second edition, they can and would do it. However, I’m not so sure. Their past few years have been all about making second editions of things they already did to become inferior items compared to what the original players already have/enjoy. Descent 2nd Edition and Battlelore 2nd Edition are two such examples of games that were among my favorites that lost a great deal of appeal for many reasons in their new incarnations.

    I’m not blind to the fact that both were good business moves; more accessibility is more sales and more people talking about your game. But they just don’t hold a candle to the originals, and value-wise, are a complete rip-off (Decent 2nd Edition especially). Having to pay more for less simply because all your new fans are completely willing to pay extra for less and then even more for things that should come standard is tough to justify, especially when you already have a superior original. Again, I’m saying this knowing why such things are done and knowing it’s not realistic to expect a business to place integrity or prideful product creation over profit and numbers.

    However, FFG does have a recent history of letting products just… die. Legends of Andor, for example is a very popular game in many markets, with Kosmos, the original publisher, having put out 3 expansions already, Yet FFG ignores many requests for North American versions and refuses to give an idea of what to expect. And whatever happened to Battles of Westros? No more development? Was Battlelore 2nd Edition considered too much competition for it? If so, why release a generic Fantasy setting version that is inferior to the original and without the huge backing license of the spin-off? Is it because the Battles of Westeros set is too rules-heavy/convoluted and Battlelore 2nd Edition is simple?

    I think the “dumbed-down” FFG machine of the past several years is an obvious business move, and of course not something I’m interested in, but no one’s going to get rich doing things that I and people like me are looking for. It’s just… uncomfortable that FFG had been making gamer games for so long and then suddenly, everything’s gone soft. I’m hoping Christiansen’s statement made with the announcement of Asmodee’s acquisition of FFG about being able to focus on the games FFG wants to make and Asmodee moving the lighter, more accessible games to other brands under them restores some meat to the FFG catalogue again and continued support for existing titles. Would be a welcome contrast the past few years of put out the latest hotness quick and leave it to die while we hit up the next trend.

    Plenty of capable companies exist that could take over WarHammer: Invasion and do it justice while giving the proper amount of resources and support to keep it strong… or do a new edition. My main concern with a new edition lies in whether it will truly be a new edition of the exist game, or simply a new game with some vague threads of similarity to the original. To use FFG examples, I would consider A Game of Thrones board game 2nd edition to really be a new edition, while Decent 2nd Edition is more like some other game that tries to reconcile all the dungeon crawl games of the previous 8 years into one generic whole. Last thing I want out of any potential WH:I second edition is simply Warhammer Fantasy: the 3rd card game.

    And now that my rant is over, does anyone know if WH:I had any cards with units, characters, items, or terms from the Warhammer Fantasy World that were not current in 2009, from past editions? That is, not directly linked to the current Edition of Warhammer at the time? I ask, because perhaps the End Times thing was on the horizon, and GW didn’t want a game using old terms, characters, etc. that aren’t being supported anymore to keep going? I realize the game is still in print, and WH Diskwars probably breaks such a rule anyway, but it’s a thought.

    1. ArgusDeadeye


      thanks a lot for your discussion of the End Times-plot, I’m really enjoying it to get Daniel’s recap, even if he gets a little bit lost sometimes. 😉

      As a fan of the Warhammer world and fluff, especially regarding High Elves, just some comments to your recap of Khaine. Most of the stuff comes from my own memory (being too lazy to check at lexicanum and all the books around here) having read it some time somewhere, so don’t hit me if I’m wrong as GW changed its own fluff once again. And although I think noone here will get that wrong, but just to mention it for any newcomer: the following are my personal thoughts about a fictional fantasy world and some of it characters some people invented. No high literature that should be seen as the world’s finest fictional work or something you should be really fighting about. But a little discussion by the side is ok. 😉

      -The Elven Gods fought a war just before the Chaos Gods rose. Khaine being jealous about Isha hanging around with another god and so on. Being weakened by this Elven God-Civil War some of them were thrown into the mortal realms when the four Chaos Gods rose and began to battle the other gods oft he Warhammer World. So Torsten found a good comparison with the D&D storyline about the Forgotten Realms-gods being thrown into the mortal realm as mortal avatars.

      -Aenarion wasn’t „one of those Phoenix Kings“, he was THE Phoenix King, a.k.a. Aenarion the Defender. He was the first Phoenix King rising to power during the first Chaos Incursion. He offered hisself to Asuryan as sacrifice and threw himself into the Sacred Flame at the Temple of Asuryan and was chosen as vessel for Asuryan’s power. Later on, fighting a war he felt unable to win, he took up the Sword of Khaine, the Widow Maker, the Sword Khaine was said to have wielded during the Elven Gods‘ war. From my point of view he is a very tragic figure as he wants to protect his people and revenge his familiy and by doing so he curses hisself and the Elves in general as he causes the Sundering (civil war between Asur and Druchii / High Elves and Dark Elves).
      So after all Tyrion relives the life of his ancestor, as he draws the Sword of Khaine like Aenarion with all the told catastrophic consequences for himself and the elves in general.

      -The plots of Glotkin and Khaine are running at parallel timelines, Khaine goes on a little bit further till 2526.

      So much for Khaine, just a few thoughts about End Times in general, including spoilers.

      Having read all four books up to Thanqoul I think that the rumours spreading the web right now seem to be true. GW really reshapes the Warhammer World it created for over two decades. Massive spoiler alert, regarding plot hooks up to Thanquol:

      -the Skaven attack Lustria and the Lizardmen there. After a first wave of attacks caused the death of several Slann Lords, which were previously knocked unconscious after trying to negate a Skaven ritual with the aim to let Morrslieb, the Chaos moon, collide with the planet of the Warhammer World the Skaven are thrown back. In an all-out-attack by Clan Pestilens and another Skaven plan to blow up the moon to get its warpstone fragments to fall on the planet Lustria and the Southlands are completely destroyed. Lord Mazdamundi, the mightiest Slann alive, destroys the biggest parts of the moon. He and all remaining Slann are killed by perfoming this ritual. Before some Slann and Lizardmen got away by starting the Exodus: they enter some of there old pyramids which are revealed to be space ships and leave into space. The Lizardmen as a race are de facto extinguished on the Warhammer Planet. Same goes for almost all of Clan Pestilens. Lord Kroak, an mumified Slann, eases the impact of the moon’s broken parts and protects some parts of the Lustrian jungle and sends them up over the horizon in some kind of protected „dimension bubbles“.

      -After Karak Eightpeak falls the Skaven also take Karak Kadrin by poisoning the whole Karak and killing all of its inhabitants except for the Slayer King Ungrim Ironfist and a part of his army. At the end a vision of the mightiest Skaven Verminlord shows that even Karaz-a-Karak falls, too. Ungrim is the bearer of the Wind of Flame Magic.

      -With Altdorf fallen to the Chaos Incursion of the Glotkin brothers and further Skaven attacks Middenheim is under siege by Skaven forces after Nuln is taken by the ratmen. After Valten and the Patriach of the Magic Orders reach Middenheim Archaon reaches the City of the White Wolf. They Skaven pledge allegiance to Archaon. While they are preparing to defend the City Teclis returns and steals the power of Ulric’s flame, thereby slowly killing Ulric himself and leaving the city of Middenheim in a state of despair as the flame dies and according to legends this should be a sign for the city’s fall. The city is taken, leaving the Empire at its knees and Emperor Karl-Franz expecting the Chaos Hordes to continue their raids towards Averheim.

      Killed Characters:
      -King Belegar
      -High King Thorgrim
      -Patriarch Gregor Martak
      -Quiek Headtaker
      -all the Slann that didn’t get a place on a space pyramid

      Ok folks, Ulthuan, Lustria and Naggaroth are completely and utterly destroyed. Same goes for Altdorf, Nuln and Middenheim and all Karaks of the Dwarfs. So GW destroys most of the known Warhammer World and takes out whole races (bye Lizardmen). Really seems to me the theories that the whole world will be destroyed and only some dimension bubbles are remaining, colliding with each other and bringing war over the inhabitants of these bubbles are true. Same goes for a smaller range of armies. All elves are more or less united, the surviving dwarfs are rallying together with the few Empire and Bretonian survivors, Chaos and Undead are a united army instead of Beastmen/Demons/Chaos Warriors or Khemri/Vampire Counts…

      I find it very sad to see a world I really liked to be utterly destroyed and many characters I have read about for years to be killed, sometimes in really gory or brutal fashion. I always liked the hugeness oft he world, the dark-gritty feel, the fantastic RPG themes and possibilities, the culture, gods, etc. After all for me the Warhammer in Warhammer Invasion was the main point that brought my attention to the game.

      And of course I can understand every Warhammer Fantasy gamer who sees his beloved army and/or game faced with extinction breaking out in nerd-rage.

      BUT… having quit playing Warhammer Miniature games several years ago I have the position of a pure Fluff nerd enjoying his Black Library novels. So I must say that GW takes a really bold move by really kicking the shit out of their world. This time it really is the End Times, no fake Apocalypse, this is the real thing! From this point of view, as a pure reader, it seems to me right now, to be the closing chapter of Warhammer Fantasy. It remains to be seen if the ending of the „End Times“ plot can bring this world to a real fulfilling and worthy end. There are serveral plot twists (especially the whole Teclis/Lileath-story) that change the existing fluff in a way I really like (enjoy would be a too „happy“ sounding word for such an apocalyptical setting).

      I really hope for an „good“ ending. Good not in the sense of a happyend at all cost. But an ending that feels right, no deus-ex-machina effects, no all-reversing-timejumps, no Dallas-style awakening under the shower.

      And, as a closing thought, I think Bitva might have a point there regarding that GW might want to close down the „old Warhammer Fantasy“ and licensed games. Discwars doesn’t fit in here, I know, but maybe FFG was further motivated to shut Invasion down because GW wants to massively change the Warhammer IP. After all the pulled the plug of the RPG just a few months before the End Times, too.

      So much from me for the moment, looking forward for your next podcast and the next tournament in February.

      1. ArgusDeadeye

        Short Addendum to the list of the Dead:
        -As already mentioned, Ulric
        -Boris Wüterich and Karzak(?) the Beastman

        as long as you and Daniel use the 20 minutes to give us your thoughts on it everything’s fine. 😉

  2. Torsten Post author

    Dear audience, the next episode will be 20 minutes shorter because instead of Daniel telling you all this we’ll just point to this comment.

    Meanwhile, my money’s on Tzeentch to save the day.


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